I was talking with a friend of mine this past weekend about peace and how it fits into our Christian faith. I brought up the usual "Turn the other cheek" arguement, but he began asking if peace could come from peace, or do we need to physically fight for it? It was an interesting discussion to say the least, but I was wondering what you guys think about peace.
1. Can it (peace) be achieved without violence?
2. Biblically and theoretically, what is your position?
3. Right now, what is your position on this topic? Are we so sheltered from the rest of the world that it is so easy for us in the west to do nothing and so we just protest?
I want to know what you are thinking.
ron
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16 comments:
Peace cannot be achieved without violence in the world we live in today. Pacifists are over-run by "terrorists" (I cringe using that word...), taking away the ideology of the pacifist by elimination.
I've always stood by a quote I heard from a military leader...
"The American nation enjoys peaceful sleep because all over the world, rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would threaten it".
We have enjoyed many decades of relative peace in our country and in our world (compared to WWI and WWII) and my generation is very quick to forget the violent sacrifice of many so that we could enjoy the peace we have today.
Think about this way...
To have peace in your personal life, you typically have to eradicate or effectively deal with an issue to the point of resolve.
The same is true on a national and global level. The question is - what are we prepared to do in order to rid our world of those who wish to violently end it without cause? Do we want peace enough to fight for it?
Maybe I'm too much of a Texan still, but I simply can't logically buy into the argument that peace brings peace.
I'm not entirely sure that physically fighting for peace is something that has been done. The factors involved in violent revolts/wars etc, have little to do with peace. I don't believe peace is something tangible to be won through battle. History has shown anytime one person/nation/government/religion attempts to impose it's will on some other entity it will cause violence. Differences in ideology and cultural misunderstandings lead to tension. Even if everyone wanted peace, just deciding what peace was(and how to achieve it) would cause conflict. I'm amazed at the amount of war, fighting and killing in the Bible. Those people all fought for what they believed in yet were never able to get what they wanted without consequences (or acheive long lasting peace). It's seems oxymoronic to physically fight for peace. Yes, it's true that our generation hasn't been in war on the scale of WWI and WWII(besides Vietnam) but I see it as a gross error to believe we've been at peace. We've been imposing our will on economics and foreign government for years. I'm sure we've angered a few people. I don't believe there is anyone (aside possibly from anarchists) that wish to end the world without cause. All the people fighting in the world are fighting for a reason. They believe their opinion is right and are willing to fight for it. They have an agenda for which they see violence as means to end. But to what end? Does ridding the world of everything we don't agree with or understand make it ok and/or bring about peace? There will continually be new ideas, new relationships and change in the world. It is inevitable. Everytime something changes not everyone will agree and you'll be right back to fighting for your ideals. I'm not pretending to have the answers but it seems a lot more productive to work together, try to understand each other and maybe even love each other than it does to fight because we think we're right.
Peace,
Tim
Tim,
You make a great point about everyone (anarchists aside) fighting because of their viewpoint being the only "right" way in their minds.
What do you say, though, to a belief that directly threatens a people-group and that bring injustice to many?
How do we peacefully go about reducing or doing away with that threat, and what do we do about the injustices that cannot be overturned without force?
Bringing peace through violence makes no sense, its like deep frying health food. We justify violence because we don't really believe in the reconciliation of Christ, we don't pick up our crosses and follow him. Just war can exist, but never has there been a war fought in a just manner, for a just cause, or even ended when that cause was reached. The problem is that we have created an economical world system driven by greed and power so that no real wars are about justice, they are about influence and power. It is sad that because the world is corrupt we decide to cooperate with that corrupt world. We must live different, from a different worldview, the only hope for our world is that the few would step up and live from a biblical worldview.
That's great theology - so how do we make it work to make an actual, tangible, measurable difference?
Sam,
It's a matter of perspective. Why does that harmful belief exist?
I agree with everything Kurt said, especially:
"The problem is that we have created an economical world system driven by greed and power so that no real wars are about justice, they are about influence and power. It is sad that because the world is corrupt we decide to cooperate with that corrupt world."
The beliefs of governments, races, religions that seek to cause harm/injustice stem from being in a corrupt world-society and acting accordingly. Unfortunately the injustices committed over the past few millenia, by all sides involved, are not likely to be forgiven by the cultures, races and religions which have been violated so many times. If we believe in "justice for all" then isn't it unjust to cause harm and do violence in any context? If we bomb "the bad guys" we lower ourselves to their level and cease to at least attempt to live up to the standard Jesus set for us. Not to mention that it's hard to carpet bomb a country and only kill "bad guys." How many innocents will die fighting against injustice and how do you justify those losses? Ethically it doesn't make sense to me. Yet, not doing anything about those injustices is probably even more unethical. So, there must be a middle ground. If I knew what that middle ground was I wouldn't be telling you on Ron's blog. I would have a million bucks and the Nobel in hand. So realistically I think it involves rethinking motives (why do we fight against some injustice(W's "Axis of Evil") but not others (Darfur and Northern Uganda)? Our motivation is rooted in the corruption of global interests, economics etc. It really involves a new worldview like Kurt says. Putting that to daily action? Dunno. If globally everyone loved their neighbors as themselves(regardless of religion) it would be a good start. What do you think?
Tim
After writing my previous comment I went to wikipedia for some quikie knowledge. Check out pages on: Peace, Democratic Peace Theory and Just War Theory. Good stuff. Too much to go into now...must sleep.
Tim
How can you kill somebody you are called to a)love and b)be reconciled with. To ask how turning the other cheek, or forgiving, loving and praying for your enemies is practical is to miss the entire gospel. It's a matter of accepting that it IS NOT PRACTICAL, and is in fact dangerous for yourself and others, but it is the way of Jesus. To kill another human being is against what it means to be a follower of Christ. In fact, I would say it is the exact opposite.
Let me ask a question to lead to another question...
What would you do to protect your wife? Let's say you drop her off at a store and you come back tp pick her up later in the day. As she walks out of the store, you see a man lunge at her from behind some bushes.
What do you do?
What if he's got a weapon? What it if means killing HIM in order to defend your wife?
This happened to me with Levi (my oldest son) a few years ago. I won't go into the whole story, but I will tell that I was prepared to do literally anything to protect him.
Love makes you do amazing things - extreme things.
Loving our neighbor does, too. If we consider our neighbor in a Biblical sense, then we're forced to do something about injustice.
That is a hard question sam, and sinfully i would kick the guys ass. But what does that convey to your son or wife, how does that perpetuate violence in this world. Maybe on a less personal note, if we go to save or free a country through violence, their children see that violence, and a never ending cycle is perpetuated. How can children who have literally watched hundreds and even thousands of people they know be brutally murdered ever find peace. I would do what you did i'm sure, but that doesn't make it right. I think that the practical side of this is a challenge to how we spend our money and how we treat others because we are passing that on to our children and their friends. Also we have to evaluate our held beliefs and ideologies, we can not be nationalistic in the sense that we support what our nation does becuse we are a good nation. Even when Israel was God's chosen people, they did wrong and God punished them. We need not support the sins of our nation to be good citizens, we need not support the sins of our church to be good Christians, and we need to buy into the accepted belief system that lies behind our nations politics, economics, and culture to be active members of this society. We must discern the spirit or our age, to condemn the idols that are behind such decisions, and to worship God alone as the judge of all. That horrible tree in the garden opened up our ability to make judgments like these, leading to justification for violence or retribution, but what we weren't told in the garden is that God alone has that right because God alone sees all and knows all. Sin is the root of all this, because we continually make judgments of good and evil, right and wrong, from or limited human perspective.
Kurt,
You've put me in a great position - I have to THINK. Thanks. I'll respond after I've chewed this over.
What does it convey to my wife? That's she's worth protecting and that I love her enough to risk harm to keep her safe.
What does it convey to my son?
To this day, he still sometimes gives me a hug and says "My daddy always keeps me safe". Shannon has told him the story many times.
The enemies that Jesus talked about were the ones in authority in the government. He taught to turn the other cheek - a reference to a humilation by a Roman soldier done with the backhand - and he taught to walk an extra mile with the soldier's pack.... it was in accordance with submission to authority.
But what about those who have been given no authority who are causing malice and injustice? Are to sit by and allow it happen? Is what Christ would do?
I don't know - I honestly don't.
ps - Here's a link to a study on war by Claude Stauffer of Calvary Chapel. It's not necessarily my position, but one that is at least taken from a Biblical persepctive.
http://www3.calvarychapel.com/hope/library/stauffer-claude/studies-topical/war/war.htm
I've been reading a book recently about the middle east. More specifically an atlas of conflict and resolution 19th century through the present. It's really informative and well written. Also the last few days we've been engaged in dialogue about peace and justice and whether or not it's ok to fight for peace. Also informative and well written. It's been wonderfully fulfilling and thought provoking(just what i've been needing.) Well, today I read that between May 2003 and january 2006 over 28,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed. 28,000. That number staggered me. It gave me a sinking, painful feeling in my stomach. Our country had directly (through invasion) caused the deaths of 28,000. People in this country are so upset about the 2-3000 servicemen (who went over there knowing they were going to war). Why hasn't this number of civilians come to my attention before? I've kept moderate track of the goings on in Iraq so why haven't I heard this info before? What would happen if more people (especially those who think the war is justified) knew about this number? How should the American people respond? Would the government listen if more people were screaming? I'm sorry, I just need to write something somewhere.
Peace,
Tim
The numbers I have heard have been much higher than 28,000. It's ironic that we have killed that many in order to save a country from "evil-doers."
As far as Sam's question goes about my wife, I don't want to answer it. Not because of the answer I would come up with, but because it brings up the option of opting out of our calling as Christians when situational ethics are brought up. The "What if's" and "but's" that we bring up when we are called to live a certain way.
I think of a certain Christian who was being pursued by the police after escaping from prison. He runs across a frozen lake, but his pursuer breaks through. The Christian comes back and pulls the man from the ice. The officer then takes the man back to prison, where he is executed. The practical thing for this man to do would have been to keep running. Not only for his own sake, but for the sake of his wife and kids, who needed him to take care of them at that time in history. But he didn't. He was a martyr. But if we speak in the practical, he would be considered a poor husband. So which is he?
Whether or not violence can solve a problem is not the issue for Christians. We do not live with and for a practical God. We live for a God of miracles and love. The violence God does support in the Bible is typically done in weakness: a small number verses a great host, so God's power can be demonstrated. And that, as you well know, is before Christ, who expanded and fulfilled the Law, calling us to turn the other cheek and love and be reconciled to our enemies.
Last thing I'll say is this: I do think there is a place for working to stop violence. This means doing anything in our power to restrain a person who would do harm to another. But I will always be nonviolent in my approach, lest I become like Peter, who thought very practically when he used violence to try to stop the arrest of Jesus. It makes sense, what he did, unless you think about it in the way God uses peace and sacrifice to do his amazing will.
Matt,
Your analogy speaks perfectly to my point. The man did what was necessary to save the officer from dying - even if it meant dying himself.
When we read of biblical or historical accounts of Christian pacifism, it is normally in the context of being willing to surrender your own life for the most just of causes.
What I'm talking about though, it the protection of others. Just as the man in Matt's analogy ricked and ultimately gave his life for another, I believe that in some wars, we as believers could engage in conflict to do the same.
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